muppetfandomcom-20200223-history
User talk:Toughpigs
Google Results Hey Danny -- I was trying to see if anybody was claiming a performer for Ovejita, and my search yielded Muppet Wiki first (yay! only we don't know either!) except look at the text that comes up.... Why does it say "It all Started with a Mouse"?? -- Wendy (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC) Sesamstraat Stuff Hey, Danny! Nice new Dutch stuff. I didn't know if you knew that Weton-Wesgram has a downloadable catalog at their website. There's a ton of Sesamstraat CD's and DVD's in there. I got all of the CD's, but I haven't even gotten to the DVD's yet. So I just wanted to mention that in case you wanted to look through it. -- Ken (talk) 03:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC) :No, I hadn't seen that! It's fantastic -- thank you! -- Danny (talk) 06:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC) ::You're welcome, and thank you for finding the cover for The Age of Television! -- Ken (talk) 05:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC) where hi, were do you get all the news about the muppets from. Like stuff about Letters to santa? --Muppetstudios 16:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC) :We get news from all over the internet. Occasionally, somebody will contribute to the wiki who has a little insider knowledge, but for the most part, we rely on websites like Tough Pigs and The Muppet Newsflash, or just from Google searches. There's a lot of information out there on the web, and we try to collect all the interesting stuff into one place. -- Danny (talk) 16:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC) foreign tongue Yo, yo. There hasn't been any activity on Talk:1, Rue Sésame or Talk:International Herry Monster for over a week. Can I take the talk boxes off? —Scott (talk) :Yup, those are done, thanks! -- Danny (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Hi! Just a couple of minor things. First, I wanted to mention that my stats on the new page are actually higher than what I have right now on the counter on my user page. It's usually lower than my current total, because I know there's a catch-up period. It's not a big deal to me personally, but I wanted to mention it in case it's a computer thing. Also, I noticed a lot of reorganization in the international records section, and I'm kind of getting confused, because I can't find certain things I was looking for. So whenever you get a chance, could you maybe explain how the categories, discographies and other pages are all organized, like on Current Events or something? That would help a lot. Thanks! -- Ken (talk) 00:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC) :Well, they've recently changed the way that they calculate the stats. I can't necessarily explain it; I just know that it's changed. Check out , and you can see everything there. :Sorry for the confusion with the international records -- I'm trying to get it organized the way that the other categories are, but it's always a little tricky working out the system. It's still in process. I just have a little bit more to do, and then I think it'll be clear where everything is... -- Danny (talk) 00:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC) ::Okay, I think it's set up now. Check out International Sesame Street Albums and tell me what you think.... -- Danny (talk) 00:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC) :::It looks good, but I'll have to play around with it. I just stumbled into a huge pile of data on Australian editions of the US Sesame albums between 1974 and 1979, so I'll be messing with that for a while. Thanks! -- Ken (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC) :::P.S. I love your mini-essay on the main page, especially the last line! -- Ken (talk) 04:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Another capital question Hi! Sorry to bother you, but I had a follow-up question over on Current Events. I'm telling you about it here because it's getting kind of buried. Thanks! -- Ken (talk) 06:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Divorce Hey, on Frank Meschkuleit, did you take it out just because it was unsourced or were you uncomfortable with it? Since in this case, it's very widely sourced (and the subject of several published plays by Sandra Shamas, which document her portrayal of it from dating through the divorce and name him specifically as "Frank"). On the other hand, if you'd just rather not get into "When Muppeteers Wed and Divorce," I can understand that. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC) :Kind of both? I know we talked about this stuff at one point, but, like so many of our "policy discussions", I have no idea when or where. But I think it was about Michael Frith & Kathy Mullen? -- Danny (talk) 05:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::Definitely not about Mullen and Frith since at last notice they were still married, and looking, it was never brought up as a policy discussion. It did come up in passing here regarding creating a *list* of married Muppeteers, but not as far as refraining to mention the facts on the actual pages (and it kind of cropped up on Talk:Brian Henson, mostly because details or sketchy and a lot of it is rumor and speculation). Maybe you said something about it on the Toughpigs forum (before I joined) when talking about personal and private information or something (since folks have mentioned it)? In the case of Shamas and Meschkuleit, it's less of a "privacy" issue since she's used it in her one-woman plays (from My Boyfriend Is Back and There's Going to Be Laundry through Wedding Bell Hell and then the divorce in Wit's End) and most profiles of Meshkuleit mention it, but again, I can understand it being a can of worms or bad precedent (or akin to one of our definite policies, which was not noting when celebrity guests or other people died of depressing, graphically described strains of cancer or other ailments, even when it's true, instead using the simplest description since how they died isn't especially Muppet relevant anyway). But this would be a good thing to bring up on Current Events. It's generally neat to link when Muppet people are married or otherwise related. But then things happen. Looking around, according to IMDb, Karen Prell and Mike Quinn were divorced in 2004 (which seems to be confirmed by Quinn's website which pictures a second wife) and it's not the kind of thing we can or should e-mail folks about (as opposed to the "Hey, can you clarify if you worked on this?" kind of query). So it's kind of a larger issue. Do we omit in cases where we know they're divorced or take out once we have evidence? Or do we just not mention it at all in case something happens? Recently, Martin P. Robinson and Annie Evans were married (second marriage for both according to the articles) and it got a fair bit of national press (including pretty pictures and coverage in the New York Times) and it's the kind of thing readers look for. No ideas on how to handle it myself, just pointing out all the issues that come to mind off the bat. Andrew Leal (talk) 16:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Yes, absolutely -- Current events. :) -- Danny (talk) 19:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Unchanged Hey! I've been adding that to some of the tables since some time back, you complained that you didn't like leaving a blank if the name isn't altered. I'm not crazy about repetition every time, though. Can we reach a compromise? A lot of web pages, including several Wikipedia charts, use things like "N/A" (not applicable). The repetition is worthwhile on International Grover, to make it clear when the name is used or isn't, but in the charts, I just really really dislike it. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :I assume you're talking about the change I made to the list on 1, Rue Sésame. In that case, I think going down the list to see "Ernest, Bart, Macaron, Unchanged, Le Comte"... it just reads weird. It sounds like we're saying that the character's name is "Unchanged", and it takes a second for your brain to catch up. What do you dislike specifically about that example? -- Danny (talk) 00:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::I dislike repeating the names. That example isn't so bad, but then there's other cases, like Die Muppet Show. I'm not crazy about unchanged (which is pretty unwieldy), but I don't like repeating the names either (and in charts like that, a blank would make it easier for the eye to gravitate to the translations and not every "Scooter," "Grover," "Rowlf," "Ernie," etc.) Honestly, I really prefer leaving a blank if the name isn't changed (since if it's not known, Henrik and I have been using "Unknown," or possibly a question mark or two that needs changing, and I think that's easy to comprehend). That's what I'd been doing originally, but you said you really wanted text in that slot so I added "Unchanged," and mentioned it to you but you never responded. Naturally, with all the Lhoribles and Macarons, you've forgotten by now. :) -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::My issue with the blank is that it looks like it's information that we don't know, and will be filled in later. My issue with "Unchanged" is that it reads weird. I think repeating the names is the best option. So it looks like you and I disagree about this -- can we get a third person involved to break the tie? -- Danny (talk) 00:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::::By the way, I agree about wanting the different names to stand out... One way to do that would be to put the characters with unchanged names at the bottom. There are probably some other options we could think of if we put our heads together. -- Danny (talk) 00:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::::We could ask someone else, if you know anyone to ask. But to be honest, and I admit this is kind of personal since it's been a labor of love, self and Henrik have done most of the work on these charts and so on (I came up with the format myself and showed it to Scott some time ago, when you were busy, and he had no problems with it). And I really like the way they were to begin with (and most still are, since I only altered a few as a test and you only noticed one or two on a passing whim when doing the rounds and have otherwise ignored it). Repetitions of six names in a row is awkward and pointless. And I don't like the idea of moving all unchanged to the bottom especially when they're major characters (it's easier for random minor ones). None of those charts use blanks for "information we don't know." If we don't know, it says "Unknown" so there's no reason to be confused. I honestly think that's pretty simple. I suppose, if you won't be budged on the repetition (and I really don't want to do that on every applicable page for every character), italics would work to make the translated names stick out, but I still think the first approach is simplest all around. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::::::Okay, that's fine. It sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. You can do it the way you want. -- Danny (talk) 00:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :This is getting unwieldy and we just conflicted. Still, just for the record, here's the earlier discussion back in July, with my own arguments then about preferring the blank, but I said I'd try "Unchanged" (and also "Unknown": that, I think *does* work better than question mark) and linked to a test page. No doubt due to other work or home issues, you either never saw it or never got back to it. By the way, since as always internet tone can be unclear, I'm not upset about this, though it is an area I love, just being methodical. :) -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::Yeah, it's all good. We can do it your way. Don't worry about it. :) -- Danny (talk) 01:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC) :::Hey! I know you said I could do it my way and I plan to, mostly. :) However, playing around, I think I found a better compromise. I'm not sure you knew how many pages use the format. See Die Fraggles, where it's about half and half and not at all for the core five characters, for why I didn't think the repetition would work. But, on 1, Rue Sésame, you're right, Grover stuck out like a sore thumb. So I just linked to the international page. It was something you'd done on Sesamstrasse, in fact (creating double linking so I simplified); I didn't like it then, but looking at it now, it works since the vast majority are renamed (but on the shorter human list, I think the blanks work). On that page, the main reason for the link is less to fill that blank than to send readers to the half a dozen or so voices Ernie and Bert have had each, which would look terrible in the chart. On the French page, the link basically changes the name from repetition to a useful connection to more information on what Grover's been called abroad. I don't want to do it in every instance even if we have an International So and So page, *but* it works in those ugly areas. Here's a few more pages I played with this evening. :::Os Muppets Conquistam Nova York (where most are untranslated but the few are worth noting or even amusing, as with Snookums, so I think space works best; there's an international Miss Piggy page, which I chose not to link, but if you find that particular blank distracting, I'm fine with using it), Muppets Tonight (Germany), Die Muppet Show (exactly half and half; again, Piggy's a blank, and moving a major character like her down would look funny, but I wouldn't be bothered by linking), Svenska Sesam (Bert, Ernie, Grover, and Sherlock all unchanged, so I think blanks help highlight the renames in this arrangement), and Bawmy się, Sezamku (which previously *did* have repetition; I could go either way, but I kind of like it this way). I've also been adding "No Dialogue" instead of blanks for animals or off-screen characters so that eliminates another blank and thus any confusion since now it's solely being used that way when no name change occurs. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 04:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::::I think that looks great! Seriously, when I made the change on the 1, Rue Sésame page yesterday, it wasn't my intention to overturn your decisions or our previous discussions. I'd completely forgotten that we'd talked about this in July, so I just made a little edit that I thought would help. ::::If this further discussion has helped you to come up with a system that you like better, that's awesome. It seems like you've got this under control. If I stumble into this area again, just remind me that you've got it covered. :) -- Danny (talk) 04:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :::::Hooray! To celebrate, have some Abre-te Sésamo. Someone uploaded three clips to YouTube. Ernie's voice is dead on (though Grover gets on one's nerves after awhile). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC) ::::::Gualter! I love it. Hiep Hiep Hoera! -- Danny (talk) 05:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC) Lhorrible Hey! All the international books are wonderful! But do you have a copy of Un Pique-nique Organisé or are you going by another source? Because according to other pages on the Wiki, "L'horrible" isn't Herry but Cookie's cousin, apparently created for use on albums and merchandise. Apparently that's him below Betty Lou in this image. Of course, the international stuff isn't always consistent so it's possible they used the same name for both. But if you could double check, that would help. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC) :Yeah, I've got the book... I'm a little confused about Lhorrible, so I'm glad you brought it up. Herry is called Lhorrible in this book -- there's a whole scene where Herry and Cookie Monster show up in Herry's car, and they go on and on about Lhorrible and Macaron. The character is clearly Herry -- he's got the pink-striped pants and everything! But there is one place right at the end that refers to Henri Le Monstre, which I'm confused about. :I only know a little French, so I'm relying on Babelfish for translations. I can scan some of this if you want... -- Danny (talk) 19:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC) ::I only know a little French, but it would help. According to CTW documents and some French message boards, he was called Hyacinthe. Apparently Jog added the specifics on "L'horrible"; he hasn't been active in awhile, but I'll leave a message. Right now, it sounds like they had multiple names but also came up with this "L'horrible" character separately, and for whatever reason, in this book they drew Herry but called him by the other name until someone remembered and checked it. In general, oversight for consistency on the international merchandise or character depictions seems to have been limited or left up to the show's producers or publishers and so on, so with some things, I get the feeling that the book writers, artists, album producers, and dub directors were often on completely separate pages or were free to do their own thing (see also the Dutch albums where Oscar is a shy monster who likes mud). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC) Duplicate images Heya. You previously deleted this image due to a claim by Jean-Guy White. —Scott (talk) 04:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC) :Or maybe not, I might be remembering wrong. But I think we talked about using his pictures at one point. —Scott (talk) 04:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC) ::Oh, okay -- I forgot about it. I'm dumb. :) -- Danny (talk) 15:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC) Transcripts Hi! There are some News Flash transcripts that link to episodes, but not to the big News Flash page. Can we link them to it, and if so, how do you want it to look? I'm asking because we already have the sketch release box for audio and video, and I didn't know if you wanted to have transcript links look the same. Thanks! -- Ken (talk) 02:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC) :Gosh, I don't know. I think this is a Current events thing... -- Danny (talk) 04:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC) ::Okay, I'll do that. Sorry if I'm asking so many questions at once, but I'm finding all kinds of things buried in the foreign CD pages! -- Ken (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC) On the first day of school... Hey, Danny, on In der Schule, there are 2 different News Flash sketches, both dealing with the first day of school. I wanted to fix the links so they'll go to the correct boxes on the News Flash page. But the divide tags are both called "firstschool". Can we change one of them? Thanks! -- Ken (talk) 06:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC) :You should ask Scott about that... I don't know nothin' about divtags. Sorry! -- Danny (talk) 06:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC) ::Okay, I'll ask him tomorrow. I've read enough German for one night. -- Ken (talk) 06:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Be Bold Hey, Danny, aren't we bolding and italicizing book titles? -- Ken (talk) 04:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC) :Good question. Want to bring it up on Current events? :) -- Danny (talk) 04:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC) ::Well, the style guide says to italicize book titles, and since the subject of a page is also bolded, and since it was already being done that way when I got here, I just figured it was already an established policy. I can bring it up if you think we should change it or talk about it, though. -- Ken (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC) :::We've never talked about it -- I think it's another of those little areas where people do different things. I don't like italicizing the beginning of the article -- I think the bold is enough emphasis. But if you're curious, we can talk about it on C.E. -- Danny (talk) 04:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC) ::::Okay, I just did. Now I'll jump back into more geschichtens and lieders and stuff. -- Ken (talk) 05:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC) Hey, nice idea to italicize the translated title! I never thought of that before! -- Ken (talk) 05:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Danny's talk archive *Muppet Wiki Talk Archives